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| Eric_A_DeadHead |
2009-09-12 17:30:13 |
Sorry, needful to say, THANK YOU FOR ANOTHER GREAT SHOW!!!
You're in the Hall Of Fame... fo' sho'! |
| cfunkthecuz |
2009-09-12 20:53:02 |
| I would love a JB matrix also. Hey Hunter, what causes the phasing 'Flanger' type sounds in this mix? I here it alot in AUD recordings when the mics are far away. Not complaining mind u, just interested... Cfunk |
| hseamons |
2009-09-12 23:49:14 |
"what causes the phasing 'Flanger' type sounds in this mix"
Thanks much for the inquiry, cfunkthecuz. This gives me an opportunity to answer an important question that other folk may have.
CAVEAT EMPTOR FOR MATRIXES:
Minimizing the highly undesired "phasing" sound should be the primary, albeit quite difficult, goal of matrixing. That being said, several factors can cause that sound:
1) AUD sources in particular can often have this "sound" in them from the mic(s) moving, especially, or the acoustical dynamics of the room changing (wind, various noise, audio levels/mix changing throughout a song, etc..). Even a bad microphone or equipment can cause audio anomalies.
2) Phasing, in terms of the matrixing process, happens when two sources are moving in "synch," essentially, but are at slightly different speeds, especially for several seconds or more. This is the hardest factor to control in matrixing analogue audio, especially when using poorer quality sources or recordings that fluctuate a lot in speed. Even the best sounding sources can fluctuate a lot.
3) I have noticed that when vocals are loud in an AUD source and the instrumentation (and/or room sound) is low, there is a greater chance for conflict between the vocals of the SBD in matrixing. The vocals are usually the first aspect of the recording to sound echoey, even if the sources are aligned "perfectly". Trying to find a balance between the inevitable "fanning" effect on the vocals - which can sometimes sound good and even more like a live recording - and the enhanced instrumentation and room atmosphere for a matrix can be a real struggle from song to song as the levels change throughout a show.
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Every matrix is its own beast to be tamed, posing very different problems from the next one. I will always have to negotiate synching and mixing techniques to find that desired "sound." On every matrix I have worked on, I have needed to accept moments of audio anomaly (whether in the recording itself or from matrixing) that are beyond the limits of the tools and skills I have.
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SO, REGARDING THIS 4/19/78 MATRIX:
Factors 2 & 3 above were more apparent in the making of this mix. Regarding point 2, I would place this show in the top 5 most difficult to sync shows I have worked on, which is why instances of phasing may be more apparent at times then previous or future matrixes. Given the difficulty, however, I think the phasing moments are relatively minimal and not very distracting from the overall quality of the recording. That being said, my skills and ability to minimize phasing has improved since last year.
Regarding point 3, off the top of my head, this and one other matrix I did generally have a more "fanned" vocal sound that borders on a "phasing" sound, but it has more to do with a "difficult blending" of sources. That being said, the majority of these tracks sound pretty good, in my estimation, while a few are not as nice as I would like. These are issues and limitations produced by the recordings themselves, along with my un-limitless abilities to "smooth it out".
I hope this info helps folk who might be sensitive to the more "organic" sound (a creative, aural tension of sound that can move around some, sometimes to pleasing effect) of the matrix, versus a non-matrixed recording.
So all this being said, when it comes down to it: some matrixes are better than others.
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| jayenes |
2009-09-12 23:59:05 |
| Hunter, you continue to churn out greatness with these matrices. We are in your debt. Thanks, man!! |
| hseamons |
2009-09-13 00:52:37 |
Just some extra, helpful thoughts for folk (and because I love technical jargon):
It's helpful to compare this matrix to the 4/16/78 I did from a few days earlier. Those sources were considerably easier to matrix (and the AUD is nicer quality), which is why moments of phasing are relatively undetectable in that matrix.
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There are 2 types of phasing sounds in my matrixes:
1) When the sources are obviously out of sync and echoey (which is quite rare, and brief when it occurs)
2) When the sources subtly fluctuate (as discussed above), but are in an acceptable "sync range" (which is noticed more in the difficult sources to matrix, and much less in sources that are easier to sync and fit together nicer) |
| bonghitwillie |
2009-09-13 01:17:45 |
| i have done some matrixing with fcp and noticed the phase effect with i synced the sources perfectly. to fix it i would move one source up a frame (1/30 of a second). |
| hseamons |
2009-09-13 01:43:20 |
^Right! The notion of a waveform or whatever lining up perfectly verses what it actually sounds like can be two different things. The tough thing then in FCP, however, is to find a way to tighten that frame up as though you were centering it to 1/60 of a second or better (usually favoring the AUD slightly behind the SBD), because I have found that the timing distance of 1/30 of a second is too large - you can easily end up on either side of (meaning, outside of) the "sync zone". For example, if you are starting close to the outside boundary (outside of the sync zone [sweet spot]) that 1/30th might put you over on the other side. Whereas if you are slightly further away, that 1/30 might just get it right. If not, speed and edit adjustments are necessary. If this doesn't make sense, then I didn't explain it well enough.
This technique is where I find the "Luke, you've switched off your targeting computer!" scene in Star Wars, where he uses the Force to fire the proton torpedoes into the Death Star exhaust port instead of using his "waveforms" on his targeting computer, to have tremendous significance. This does not mean to imply that unique techniques and skills are disregarded, but are instead guided by instinct. |
| dead-chef |
2009-09-13 01:52:17 |
| You are the Obi-wan Kenobi of matrixes. |
| hseamons |
2009-09-13 02:02:06 |
lol So, that must mean Chappell is the Yoda of matrixes??? And hansokolow is the Han Solo of matrixes???.......And of course we all know who the ultra cool Boba Fett of matrixes is..................
Heeheeheeheehee Hahahahahahaha Hooohoohohoooohooohooo
K, turning down the laughing gas a little.
HEEEEHEHEHHEEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEEEEEEHEE, HAHHAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAHAHAHAHAHAH,
HOOOHOOOHOHHOHOHOHOHOHOOHOHOHOH
Darn that laughing gas. Darn it to hell.
Just a few more hours and the hallucinations will start kicking in....can't wait...... |
| hseamons |
2009-09-13 11:26:55 |
| I've been reviewing my comments from last night, and I just want to apologize to certain "pet peeve" folk for using the "that being said" phrase on multiple occasions. I understand how annoying the use of this phrase is for some, and I will honestly try to avoid its use in future torrents/forums. Thank you for your continued understanding and support. |
| cfunkthecuz |
2009-09-13 12:39:19 |
Wow! Couldn't ask for a better response! Thats no moon, its a durn Hunter Trix! hee hee) Thanks Hunter, Cfunk
ps.. I've tried to sync my own jams from 2 sources(all digital) and not had any success keeping the time from shifting..(dont know what I'm doing) so I know your work is top notch buddy!! |
| hseamons |
2009-09-13 12:48:05 |
| ^I've avoided matrixing all digital sources when they are at different speeds precisely because of the "type 2" phasing they can easily produce. The 10/1/94 and 3/28/85 (set 1) I did were identical speed sources, so those turned out quite well. |
| mdmeyer |
2009-09-13 14:39:30 |
Hunter, I really appreciate your comments. I've been messing around with trying to make my own matrixes lately, and it can be really tough. I spent numerous hours trying to matrix the 1975 GG Park show, for example, with pretty mediocre results. There are just so many fluctuations that I have to just go through, so slowly, trying to keep it in sync. Have you ever tried to do this show? Do you think it's worth it?
Thanks for what you do. |
| scotcmills |
2009-09-13 15:14:24 |
| Thanx a bunch.... |
| hseamons |
2009-09-13 15:54:07 |
mdmeyer,
I'm not sure if a matrix would ever be "better" than this AUD source for said show:
http://db.etree.org/shninfo_detail.php?shnid=91769
This is one of the best outdoor AUD recordings I've ever heard, and it could even be mistaken for a SBD, it's so damn good. It's better than the SBD, for sure.
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| mdmeyer |
2009-09-13 16:15:42 |
Without a doubt, a really nice AUD and a cool narrative to go with it. But Phil's not as present as I'd like him to be, and Jerry's voice is down in that weird little hole. Maybe EQ on the AUD would be smarter. On the other hand, sometimes if you try to gild a lily it gets roont.
Cheers! |
| hseamons |
2009-09-13 16:22:22 |
Well, legend had it that the 3/9/81 AUD, by the MOTB team as well, could not be improved upon, but it was. Heeheeheeheeeeeeeeheeeeheeeeheee
So, who's to say the same could not apply here. I say, go for it! |
| mdmeyer |
2009-09-13 17:45:49 |
| Nice! Thanks for the encouragement. I'll keep chipping away at it and see what happens. (Not the best metaphor, maybe...) |
| cfunkthecuz |
2009-09-13 19:17:30 |
| You guy's are awesome! downloading the 9 28 75 show now! I still have yet to see\hear a show with a hot Desolation Row. "Now dont get jittery Luke, there are alot of command ships." :o) |
| cfunkthecuz |
2009-09-13 19:29:10 |
^is a Bob Desolation.. worthy of a command ship? eh eh?
I've been drinking. |
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