|Show||gd1979-04-22.fob.holwein.menke.motb.0116.flac16 **New MOTB**|
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|Description||MOTB Release: 0116 16/44.1|
Release Date: 2010-01-06
Band: Grateful Dead
Date: 1979-04-22 (Sunday)
Venue: Spartan Stadium - San Jose State University
Location: San Jose, CA
Analog Audience Source: FOB Master Cassettes (MAC)
Medium Stock Brands: MAC = 2 x Maxell UDXL-II
Analog Lineage: 2 x AKG d2243 >> Sony TC-D5 >> MAC
Analog Sound Preservation: MAC >> Nakamichi CR7a => Korg MR-1000 >> DSF [1-bit 5.6448 MHz Stereo] >> Korg MR-1000 => Korg AudioGate >> WAV [24/96]
Taped By: Rhineheart Holwein
Transfer By: Bob Menke
Mastering By: Derek McCabe
d1t01: Jack Straw
d1t02: Tennessee Jed
d1t03: Mama Tried ->
d1t04: Mexicali Blues
d1t06: New Minglewood Blues
d1t07: Brown Eyed Women
d1t08: Looks Like Rain
d1t09: Stagger Lee
d2t01: I Need A Miracle ->
d2t02: Bertha ->
d2t03: Good Lovin'
d2t04: Scarlet Begonias ->
d2t05: Fire On The Mountain
d2t06: Estimated Prophet ->
d2t07: He's Gone ->
Set 2 (cont'd):
d3t01: Drums ->
d3t02: The Other One ->
d3t03: Wharf Rat ->
d3t04: Around And Around
d3t05: U.S. Blues
d3t06: Shakedown Street
Tape flip after "Minglewood". Then there is a mic issue after the flip, and the left channel is missing for the first 20 seconds of "Brown Eyed Women". We took the right channel and made a mono patch which crossfades into the stereo.
Tape flip after "drums" left as is.
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|Trust me i'm famous for flying off the handle. And I have tried to keep it civil here. And I don't know why. But davidotas, read my rant above. There is simply not enough information on analog recordings to justify 24-96. 16-44 has more dyanmic range than any cassette or even reel to reel source, more than enough frequency response for cassettes and reels.
And my favorite point is that 24-96 is NOT a format.
Where can I buy Eric Clapton's latest release in 24 bit?
I just use him as an example of something newly recorded. 24-96 is a file format. Can I get a Road Trips Vol whatever in 24 bit? NO. Our little community here is never going to have the push it takes to spur on record companies, equipment manufacturers or whatever. Why do people burn cd's.
Because you can buy a cd player. There is no portable player that will play flac files without gaps between tracks. That's a good thing eh?
Ipods and mp3 players are the worst thing that ever happened to audio. People are buying into less quality. That's another good thing?
If you have the equipment to hear the difference over a pair of speakers, more power to you. I assume you have a Benchmark DAC (considered to be the best) a dvd player that will output LPCM at 24/96 and a cd player with the same show to do an a/b comparison. And be sure and tell me about the high priced speaker system this is coming through...you know the kind doctors can afford. I should mention the cd player should be digitally connected to the DAC for a fair comparison. Headphones don't count. The can only be worn for a limited amout of time before fatigue sets in.
I must add the concept of using a pc as a stereo component is absolutely abhorrent to me. I have moved my pc into another room away from my stereo so it can't even be a possibility anymore. My pc takes enough abuse as it is. And when you're doing something else on the pc, i experience dropouts because the processor gets too busy.
I've been seeing so much shit about how 16-44 is the new mp3 that I just had to do something. After quick consideration I've decided that 16-44 is what I will release.
|Nice read...My turn :)
I have not totally bought into 24bit yet. For two main reasons:
1. the file sizes at them time were huge compared to 16bit
2. i can hardly tell the difference in the sound quality and i dont have the time all the time to listen to complete shows. I don''t have fancy headphones (yet). I may have some nice klipsch speakers but shit they were like $250 or $300 for the 42" speakers and no my pc is not connected to the receiver, etc in the family room. When i win the lottery someday i will buy those doctor's speakers bob spoke of and then we can also talk about all the other equipment i will need to play 24bit so i can hear all the "differences".
...so for now...Thank you for the 16bit and yet another MOTB release!
|nice job being contrarian bob
24 bit still sounds better on less than 1000 dollars of equipment in my house..and to every person ive ever had walk through my homes door. I ask everyone...and they always hear the extra detail.
|I understand you're point Badbob. Especially regarding older audience tapes made with equipment that was frequency limited.
Older studio-grade equipment is a different story.
Also, it's possible to build hi-end speakers for a fraction of the commercial cost. And there are some chinese-made DACs that compare to the Benchmark for 1/2 the $$, or less.
A couple of DIY audio sites:
Clapton's last studio album was released on "dualdisc" that had a 24/48 layer.
Workingman's Dead and American Beauty were available in 24 bit DVD-A. Dunno about the roadtrips...
|Let me restate a point:
Every single releaase that has Falanga or Reinhard as the taper is over recorded. The high end is compromised because of the levels. The bass is on the verge of distortion. These are very imperfect recordings. A manufacturer rates his cassette deck's frequency response...oh say 50-15k. He took that measurement at -20 db. His signal to noise ratio measurement (that's dynamic range) was measured at 0 db. What made for a great taper? Figuring out how high to set the levels for the best possible compromise. I am sure there is not much useful information in the high end on those tapes. And we are not even considering microphones and condition of decks or any of that stuff. Just the recording technique for the moment. So what are we hearing on a 24 bit rendering that isn't audible in a 16 bit? I still think people hear what they want to hear. The folks that walked through your door? Were they told which one was 16 and which was 24 to begin with? Scientifically that makes it valid or invalid.
|I don't know if it's illusion or what, but no matter what anyone says I always 'feel' like these 24/96 or 24/48 versions sound better.
Isn't it more about resolution? My understanding is that the 24 bits allow for a smoother more realistic depiction of the wave form, and also that with 16 bit the softer sounds will sound like rubbish as only the loudest parts will get the full 16 bit. Whereas with 24 bit you can hear the dynamic range better because even the softer parts of the music will be in at least 16 bit resolution. Is this not so?
Oh and my setup is the computer in another room, M-Audio 1010 24/192 (if desired) output to a valve preamp and old Rotel solid state amp with shitty speakers. Also rockbox on your ipod can play gapless flac files.
|No ipod...not now, not ever...I WILL NOT CONTRIBUTE TO THE DOWNFALL OF AUDIO QUALITY. Read this again: 30+ year old cassettes overrecorded a freq response probably good to 12k a s/n ratio of about 60db 16-44 is good from 20k to 22k s/n is in the mid 90 range. What is to be gained with with a source like that. Now I like what I've been releasing, don't get me wrong. But it doesn't add up for me. If you go out and tape whoever on a digital recorder at 24/96 or higher (read Korg DSD) yeah there is gonna be something to be said for a 24-96 release. But the delusion that 16-44 is no longer an adequate solution raised the hairs on my neck and makes me see red. And so I have chosen to make my statement by the actions I take.
|Bob, first thank you for the work you are doing. A couple points I disagree with you on. Hooking my computer through a great 24 bit soundcard it THE BEST thing I have ever done with my audio collection. Again, THE BEST, and possibly the greenest as well. One of the biggest jambands out there just started releasing thier shows in 24 bit flac. There is a difference, and it really can be done and appreciated on a couple thousand dollar system. With my PC at the heart of my system, I can download any fileset in minutes, and press play without ever burning the cd's if I do not want to, and to anyone who doesnt think a PC can be a high end audio source, well thats too bad for them, there is an argument to be made that it is the perfect high end source. thanks -marc
My attempt at a little humor here:
I don't tug on superman's cape
I don't spit into the wind
And I refuse to use my pc as a stereo component
Seriously, my pc gets enough use without it being asked to be a jukebox. And I have a new library/office where my pc is not and the stereo is in the other room. No practical way to hook them up now. A side benefit of the new office.
|I'm convinced that the difference heard between a 24/96 master and the 16/44.1 rendition of that master is due to the SRC.
Trying to hear the difference between a 24/88.2 or 24/176.4 master and the 16/44.1 rendition of THOSE masters will be a bit more difficult ( read: expensive )
|bob and motb-thanks for sharing these. appreciate it
|First off - I dig a little audio technical discussion - I remember being aghast at my cousins suggestion that he couldn't tell any difference beyond 110 rate mp3's so just did his collection at that. sigh.
Mr Menke , I have listened to many of your musical history contributions here and elsewhere. Thanks a lot!!!!! and all the best for 2010!
What about HDCD? I've always been meaning to try to get a dvd player that plays HDCD because I have most of the official releases which are all in HDCD, my understanding is it adds an extra 2 bits (much like the posters here) to the audio making it 18 bit or something. I gots the goods (so to speak) otherwise in amplifiers,cables, speakers etc to hear any diffference. Is it worth still seeking one out? Can you hear the difference?
|I specifically bought a Rotel HDCD player more than a few years ago. Specifically because all the GD and JG releases were encoded that way. I can't say I hear a difference. But there's peace of mind knowing I'm getting everything out of them. Maybe its because I've not been turning up my stereo loud for years. My grandparents used to sleep in the room next to mine. They've been gone since 1993. But my mom was a light sleeper and so the volume stayed down after that. So i have listened to music at low to moderate volume for what seems forever now. HDCD players are harder to find than ever. I recommend getting one sooner rather than later if you choose to go that route.
|I think some of you are missing the main argument - that the cassette masters that Bob is using only has a limited freq range and no matter the encoding above 16 bit, it will never change the original recording. He is doing his best to ensure that the best versions of the recordings are released but nothing can make 30 year old analog cassettes equal to the recorders used today - mostly by bands that now put there recordings out in higher bitrate. Same with video where the vhs had limited resolution compared to the HD camera's today. Still damm good recordings and cd quality wave has been the standard since etree started.
PS as one that works "minutely" with the various recordings out there when working on video or matrix/dts, I honestly can not say that I hear any Significant difference between 16 bit and 24 bit. This is considering that I can and have gone over the same 15 second spot 10 using various sources to ensure it sounds as good as I can get it sync wise or different version wise.
|Thanks for the advice, I hadn't heard of Rotel players before but they seem to get good reviews for the DAC. I'll pick up an hdcd player eventually because like you I 'might as well' get the extra 4 bits 'for what its worth' on my GD and JG releases and of course Neil Y and Joni M releases.
Your points seem obvious to me - the original tapes dynamic range pretty much limits any advantage to our slick new modern methods as kevtobin states.
Peace - and don't let the pissants get you down. The MOTB work is invaluable and a lasting legacy.
|The MOTB has 2 goals:
1-Audio Preservation: The raw transfers of all our releases are at least 24-96 or higher. A DSD recorder has been used for a couple of years. The music will survive.
2-The release of the edited shows. Our editors try to correct fixable problems of the raw tapes. And make them sound as good as we can for the listening public.
That is the what we are doing.
|Indeed and while I can sympathise with the listening at low to moderate volumes due to family considerations (I had a friend into Mahler who was convinced that was the only way to listen) - I fortunately have a barn to 'turn it up loud' once in a while .
wow! MOTB more than 100 releases. Well done to all! muchas gracias.
motb.org was interesting for the technical info and the amazing well thought out organisation:
as you say 'the music will survive' for 'our little community'.
"Our only goal is to get the music archived in the best possible manner no matter who is doing the work!"
|I have been reading this discussion with great interest as I record in the field with Schoeps mics, Grace V2 and E.A.A. PSP-2 Pre-amps and the Benchmark a/d2402-2 ADC (aka Sonicn AD2K+) . My DAC is the Sony STR-DA3000ES DSD receiver and Klipsch KLF-10 speakers.
I know, I know, the playback end needs a bit of an upgrade. But it actually sounds pretty good.
There is so much in the 24/96 transfer/capture realm I not really going to get into it - to me it seems that with storage space as cheap as it is if you have a quality ADC why not record at 24/96 and get the most accurate data stream possible. I understand the whole concept of dynamic range/frequency response with analog sources and the capabilities of 16/44, but if you have the 24/96 capabilities, why not create the most accurate data stream possible. Maybe I am wrong here. I am certainly not the expert but trying to learn as much as possible.
As far as portable players go, my iRiver iHP120 with the Rcokbox firmware installed has an optical out and will play gapless FLAC and .shn files, limited however to 16/44. Analog and digital in/out, USB, 20GB harddrive convertible to a 32GB CF Card, plug-in power for small eletrect mics, an FM tuner and of course recording capabilities for, mic, FM, analog and digital inputs.
Great little device, out of production and getting harder to find, but they are out there and without question worth picking up if you can find one.